Design Engineers, Look Out. You are Becoming Extinct.

Charles Culp August 20, 2009 at 9:23 am

I have to say that I've only ever met a few “CAD engineers”. Almost all engineers I know spend most of their time engineering, and only use CAD as a tool for creating drawings, or hand off that work to a CAD designer.

diverso August 20, 2009 at 10:18 am

We'll, I kind'a fall in the Limbo on this one:
I started college as a Graphic Design major
Then I dropped that to get my A.A. in CADD/CAM
I got pretty good hands-on experience in sheetmetal manufacturing and design
I started at my current job as a AutoCad Drafter and progressed to Designer > Engineer (w/o a B.S)> and know I'm the SW Admin./Designer.
I found that my true passion is Industrial Designer, but there are no ID schools in San Diego so I'm still lacking the degree.

erickam August 20, 2009 at 11:27 am

Yes and NO. A pure specialist design engineer? Extinct or needing to evolve? In my mind a design engineer (and what we were schooled to pursue when I went to school). was a balance of design for Feature/performance, and Cost, and Quality/value, and Production-capability/on-time-delivery.

I think what is going, going, gone are the days when an engineer would only focus on feature, rely on some specialist for FEA/CAE prove out of function, a specialist Manufacturing Guru to tell him if it can be made, A costing guru who tells her the cost, and a manager who makes good decision for them. What we see more and more are engineers who must play wear all hats. And make educated data based decisions on product design VALUE.

Function-Quality-Cost-Delivery are the decision drivers (http://wp.me/pmJ59-1w). Too many “pure” design engineers have focused on only one, or perhaps two legs of that table at a time. And what people have called “simultaneous engineering” still tends to leave some concerns out in the cold. And too often CAE/FEA specialized lean towards attainment of some functional/quality goal at ALL COSTS.

Matt you test your candidates on statics questions? Maybe include EUAC (Equalized Uniform Annual Costs), Amortization, simple cost distribution and ROI percentage math in addition to technical skills need more attention

Fred Schechter August 20, 2009 at 11:46 am

Matthew, great article. Regarding the distinction (a rather obvious one). One of the biggest issues revolving around your article is business scale. A tiny shop/small product design business, or other smaller group will tend towards someone in your design engineer category, as they're wearing many hats at once. Meanwhile, larger groups tend more towards the specialization of the CAD designer that you note (while the engineer is in the back checking calcs, and stamping). I think part of this issue comes about as an artifact of the work required in the position (or simply put, practice).
In the bent of Industrial Design (I am one) more of that ilk tend towards the design engineer area, yet are never (sadly) cross trained in the statics/dynamics/cfd area, as typically (in the collegiate environment here in the states) those are not parts of the curriculum and any knowledge in that area is typically self taught in the I.D. sector.

Diverso, you can always take a 1 hour trip north to Long Beach State for a wonderful I.D. program, or 2 hours north to Art Center, or 3 hours North to Cal State Northridge (I believe there are others now as well).

kevinsilbert August 20, 2009 at 12:14 pm

Just thinking about it makes me tired. I think I'll lay down in this pool of black sticky goo on the ground…

Marijn August 20, 2009 at 2:48 pm

Good news, I hope your right.

Where is the money???

frankparenteau August 20, 2009 at 4:16 pm

I agree on many points there, and i think you really got a feel of this when you speak structural integrity with a seasoned engineer, versus one that is just out of school. The former has a deep understanding of what forces are in play, what will be the weak spot, etc, before even doing an FEA. The latter will need to see actual CAD data to point out what are the modifications necessary.

I see the same kind of problems in industrial design scenarios (i am one). People more and more are relying too much on CAD. A lot of my knowledge i had to learn post school, i wasnt even taught how to do 2d drafting on paper. Yet i will often step back and look at the problem, try to find solutions and get away from the PC for a while, do a real life model, do some prototyping. What new designers tend to forget is that in 3D, everything works. But it doesnt necessarily means it will in real life. You can't let the machine do the work for you.

In my work environment, we have engineers, mechanical drafters, and industrial designers. I think we developed a good synergy by focusing on the strenghts and covering each others weaknesses.
Industrial and mechanical designers will cover the cad work, manufacturing process and all around feasability while the engineers will help us optimise everything. Worked out great so far.

I wasnt aware of the “design engineer” profession to be honest though maybe its more common in the US of A

bigmikeo August 20, 2009 at 9:51 pm

Matthew works for a high-end consulting firm, I would not expect any less requirement for the positions defined. Other corporations, like where I work, have a different requirement for Mechanical Design Engineers. Would I ever apply for a job at Daxcon, knowing what kind of work they are contracted for, probably not. I'm a Electrical guy that does mechanical work. Could I do CAD layout work there, maybe, but I don't know the GD&T standards so probably not.

In my small world I'm an asset. I do it all, from concept to owners manual, BOM's to assembly docs, Engineering builds to drop testing, program manager to P.O. requests. Were a small company with five engineers, Power, Software, PCB layout, a real ME and myself. There is no one for me to hand off to nor for them to hand off to me.

I'm not complaining, I love it!
Matthew would not accept my LinkedIn request I imagine.
He's above me, I know it, he knows it, we're both fine with that.

kevindesmet August 21, 2009 at 7:03 am

You've just described the requirements for like, a dozen different positions. I feel that one tends to be way to scrutinous and demanding.

It depends on whether the company is big or small I suppose – a small company will mean you need more diversity and a big company hires experts in one field, doing one thing. If a big company needs a sheet metal guy, they don't care if you can do advanced surfacing (a bit exaggerated here)

It's an interesting topic and I definitely see, hell even agree, with you. But “going extinct” is for a very logical reason: your pool of candidates that can stick that might be a few hundred in the world.

diverso August 21, 2009 at 2:13 pm

Fred,
Thanks for the suggestions, I've done my research and the only true possibility would be the Online Program (Fully Accredited) from the Academy of Art University. CSULB doesn't offer evening classes for the program and I have a great full time job here in SD, relocated would be a last resource.

Matthew Loew August 22, 2009 at 12:50 pm

Doing it all is part of what makes the design engineer so valuable. I think we are much closer than you indicate. I'm not above anything – I just know what I need out of a design engineer. I need to have other skill sets on my team as well. Some of the best contributors on my teams have been CAD Engineers – I just can't do all of the basic engineering if that is all I have. Send me an invitation to connect – my network will be stronger with you in it.

Aravind August 22, 2009 at 3:03 pm

very interesting observation and most of this is true in my experience.

edwinschultz August 24, 2009 at 11:30 am

I understand the arguement… mainly because I've sat across the table from Mathew and listened to it multiple times. I agree there is a difference between a design engineer and a “CAD engineer”, but I would argue that rather than becoming extinct, the role of “design engineer” is evolving with the times. I would also argue that there is always going to be a need for both designers and CAD users… at least until our mechanized overlords tell us otherwise.

The difference Mathew describes between the two roles seems to be that a “design engineer” has a built in database of engineering knowledge that provides him/her with some intuition about where to begin a design and how to evolve his/her initial concept to devolop a final deliverable. He/she has a large toolbox, and has built confidence using each of the tools at his/her disposal.

The “CAD engineer” doesn't have the beefy mental database to provide that intuition and confidence, so he/she looks to similar existing designs, develops an initial CAD concept, and uses that as a basis of communication with peers and experienced “design engineers”. His/her final design is then honed through feedback and what they have learned through the design process.

So it seems to me that the real difference is… experience. In school, an engineer (of any type) isn't taught everything about every design possibility out there (mainly because we're finding new ones every day). They certainly aren't expected to remember the application and design approach for every possibility. Instead they are given the basic concepts necessary and are ultimately taught how to pick up a book and apply what's in it to what they are doing. They have to start somewhere and the tool they are most familiar with is a CAD program. Eventually for a design to be released it has to be modeled and detailed anyway, so its not exactly the worst thing in the world.

The next time that “CAD engineer” runs across a similar design, his/her database is going to have some reference information rattling around and he/she will approach their design in a more intuitive, straight-forward, fashion.

In my opinion if you want there to be more “design engineers” in the world, find yourself some quick learning “CAD engineers” and train them. It won't take long to weed out the people with the capacity to be “design engineers” and those that are destined to be “CAD users” for life. By not giving CAD engineers a chance, you're depriving them of the opportunity to obtain the experience that will one day distinguish them as a “design engineer”. Essentially that means your elitism is the disease leading to the extinction of your own species.

So now lets look at this from a business point of view. Lets say you build a consulting firm filled with “design engineers”. You are going to be capable of cracking out some seriously badass designs my friend. Unfortunately, you're not going to find my companies looking for that level of detail. If you do, you certainly aren't going to be very profitable… turns out those “design engineers” get paid a lot more than the “CAD engineers” straight out of school do. Not to mention, what “design engineer” with 10 years of experience wants to be the low man on the totem pole? Sounds like a lot of chiefs and not enough indians to me.

My point being there are an abundance of tasks in the design world that don't take a lifetime of experience to do well. Take advantage of those tasks as teaching tools and confidence builders, and sooner or later the engineering world won't look like such an under educated place.

Matthew Loew August 24, 2009 at 7:09 pm

Very good reply. I must admit I did not think about some of the things you brought up. Thanks for that. I think it takes two things for a CAD Engineer to evolve into a Design Engineer, experience as you point out, and the discipline to know how to apply that experience – I still maintain that the ability to use the engineering fundamentals is a key missing ingredient. I'll have to think about the elitism; it certainly can't be productive.

I also agree with you that you need a mix – too many design engineers is both expensive and inefficient. My point is that you can't only have CAD Engineers as a complete substitution for Design Engineers. Perhaps is is a symbiotic relationship. The CAD Engineers with their (often) superior skills with the tools can teach the Design Engineers a thing or two. I've been successful managing teams with both. There is not going to be an ideal ratio, but I can't see it ever being X:0 or 0:X without issues.

edwinschultz August 25, 2009 at 9:30 am

I agree that both experience and discipline are what it will take to become a successful design engineer, and the discipline (or lack there of) is really the meat and potatoes of this discussion. In my opinion discipline is the combination of ability and willingness. In my discussion above, I made the assumption that the engineer ascending from “CAD” to “Design” has both. Without the ability, an engineer will be a CAD user for life (and honestly there's nothing wrong with that). Without the willingness, the engineer should have picked another profession… there's plenty out there that pay better.

I agree that you'll never be able to completely substitute one engineering type for the other. If you think about the spectrum of engineering work that comes through a consulting office, it starts with trivial detailing. You need CAD users, but no engineers. Then as you move up the scale, you'll eventually hit a design task complicated enough to require 1 design engineer with a support staff of CAD users. Moving farther you'll reach a work intensive complicated design task that requires several design engineers with only a few CAD users. Finally, on the high end of the spectrum you'll hit high end R&D. Its going to be more logic than CAD based (maybe not even requiring CAD design at all) and you'll need a group of pure design engineers.

In theory, design engineers could be substituted for CAD users in the lower level tasks, but then economics steps in and says using lower paid CAD engineers is more profitable. This is where management comes into the picture. A good manager can look at a project, break it down into tasks, and choose the correct mix to get the job done in the most profitable fashion.

Over a long period of time, a manager may not have the available personnel to get an ideal mix so they are forced to make a substitution here an there. Its a juggling act in which gambling becomes necessity.

Right now in the market, you've got several companies that kept their strongest assets and laid off a significant percentage of their workforce to weather the economic storm. Things are coming around and they need to replenish their ranks, but money is still tight. Design engineers looking to make a move are scarce and come at a high cost, but there's a flood of laid off CAD engineers, CAD users, and new graduates looking for work. The companies filling positions are opting to interview a few hundred CAD engineers hoping to substitute the best and brightest for a design engineering position.

That's why, at least for the short term, its going to look like design engineers are being phased out. In the long term, companies are going to have to maintain quality to be profitable, and thus design engineers will always be necessary.

Gary Dax August 25, 2009 at 11:01 am

There are thousands of candidates that have their Masters Degree and can easily perform those Design Engineering tasks. Most people take the classes that are required to perform these skills by their Sophomore year. The majority of candidates that are 4.0 students or have their Masters don't have the people skills and the attitude that is necessary to work in a team environment or in a customer service industry. For our business you definitely need a mix of people because some people feel that certain tasks are beneath them. It's not cost effective or efficient to have too many Design Engineer. I've interviewed hundreds of candidates and built an Engineering Department that started with 6 people and grew to over 150. The business model is always changing due to economic conditions and global competition. The skills required also changes a little but, some of them stay the same. If you start with people with good smart people that are team players, they can learn the rest. The tools will change and the better people will learn to use them and apply them correctly. There are many extremely good Design Engineers and Cad Engineers laid off. Job losses are the last indicator of a recession. Last to go and last to come back. There will be a large need for Design Engineers when the economy turns and they won't be extinct. I don't disagree with Matt's skills list but, the order they are listed may be coincidently backwards in priority when selecting Engineering candidates.

hybridcarsowner August 26, 2009 at 8:03 pm

sometimes i found a litle problem in my 3d project, because i'm the beginner. but this post give more inspiration for me. thanks..

beechum1 August 29, 2009 at 5:17 pm

Nice to see someone that has succeeded without the “education.” Gives me some mojo to me sitting on my computer watching SW videos and designing what i can find just to practice to do what I want….

Josh M November 19, 2009 at 12:04 pm

Hey Stephanie! Thanks for the write-up. I'm sure Matthew would love the perspective you have. I love the quote you used from Heinlein. LOVE. IT.

“A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects.”

Stephanie Moore-Fuller November 20, 2009 at 2:21 pm

Thanks for your kind comments Josh!

wizardofid November 25, 2009 at 5:42 am

Very Interesting. I thought this was a problem unique to India. A large part of India's mechanical engineering population is employed in fancy air conditioned sweat-shops, where they follow instruction sheets on how to create CAD parts. I suspect that some of these were originally lower end jobs in the US that just got commoditized and gloablised. Most of this work is extremely low end and does not require mechanical engineering skills, just the basics to know what should not be done or at a slightly better level, what cannot be done. Since these jobs are well paying (for now) they've absorbed many otherwise talented engineers and turned them into plug-in CAD droids. Many of them have never been involved in the manufacturing or physically held the part that they constructed on CAD.

The auto industry fortunately still employs some good mechanical engineers, but I find that there is such an over-reliance on the CAD/CAE tool, that doing calculations would be considered menial. I work at an Industrial Design firm that does a fair bit of product development for electronic, medical and defense clients. But often we collaborate with other (international) client partners who specialise in mechanical engineering. I'm often shocked and saddened to see the level of work that actually happens, that basic mechanical engineering mistakes happen even in this day and age. A development dialogue revolves more around CAD/ shape/ placement/ configuration, rather than also including discussions on materials and high end manufacturing processes and the costs associated with them.

wizardofid November 25, 2009 at 10:42 am

Very Interesting. I thought this was a problem unique to India. A large part of India's mechanical engineering population is employed in fancy air conditioned sweat-shops, where they follow instruction sheets on how to create CAD parts. I suspect that some of these were originally lower end jobs in the US that just got commoditized and gloablised. Most of this work is extremely low end and does not require mechanical engineering skills, just the basics to know what should not be done or at a slightly better level, what cannot be done. Since these jobs are well paying (for now) they've absorbed many otherwise talented engineers and turned them into plug-in CAD droids. Many of them have never been involved in the manufacturing or physically held the part that they constructed on CAD.

The auto industry fortunately still employs some good mechanical engineers, but I find that there is such an over-reliance on the CAD/CAE tool, that doing calculations would be considered menial. I work at an Industrial Design firm that does a fair bit of product development for electronic, medical and defense clients. But often we collaborate with other (international) client partners who specialise in mechanical engineering. I'm often shocked and saddened to see the level of work that actually happens, that basic mechanical engineering mistakes happen even in this day and age. A development dialogue revolves more around CAD/ shape/ placement/ configuration, rather than also including discussions on materials and high end manufacturing processes and the costs associated with them.

• Are Mechanical Design Engineers Becoming Extinct? « The Design Urge
• Are Mechanical Design Engineers Becoming Extinct? « The Design Urge
• design engineer - StartTags.com
• Stop Smoking Now Utilizing Stop Smoking Lozenges | Nutrition Tips | Smoking Health Wisdom

←Previous post:

Next post:→